General News & Politics (10 Viewers)

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,021
Islam has little to do with the fact that Muslim countries are failing. It has everything to do with tribalism and Arab culture. The only downside of Islam in this context compared to other religions is that the later texts of Islam are much easier to politicize and use for political gains.

Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, Jordan are not real countries. They are a collection of minorities, sects, tribes, cities etc. grouped (or stuck) together by imaginary borders drawn by western countries after the ottoman collapsed post WW1. While the west did caused a lot of the issues that are now catching up to those places, and still support authoritarian regimes let's not pretend that if left to their own devices thing will be any better.

Arab culture is simply not compatible with the modern concept of a centralized state. The world in forcing a square block in a round pigeonhole. The only time Muslim countries were successful was when they had an Uma or a caliphate which is, in simple terms, a completely decentralized modal of a country.
:tup:
 

Jäger

Senior Member
May 2, 2021
1,033
Islam has little to do with the fact that Muslim countries are failing. It has everything to do with tribalism and Arab culture. The only downside of Islam in this context compared to other religions is that the later texts of Islam are much easier to politicize and use for political gains.

Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, Jordan are not real countries. They are a collection of minorities, sects, tribes, cities etc. grouped (or stuck) together by imaginary borders drawn by western countries after the ottoman collapsed post WW1. While the west did caused a lot of the issues that are now catching up to those places, and still support authoritarian regimes let's not pretend that if left to their own devices thing will be any better.

Arab culture is simply not compatible with the modern concept of a centralized state. The world in forcing a square block in a round pigeonhole. The only time Muslim countries were successful was when they had an Uma or a caliphate which is, in simple terms, a completely decentralized modal of a country.
But you cannot deny that islam has played a major role in influencing that sort of tribal, archaic mentality though. It is literally integrated into their laws, their way of life, and the way they view other people (women, gays e.t.c) This fundementalism is what's keeping their respective societies stuck in the dark ages, something that is not rlly the case anywhere else, as far as I'm aware.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,441
But you cannot deny that islam has played a major role in influencing that sort of tribal, archaic mentality though. It is literally integrated into their laws, their way of life, and the way they view other people (women, gays e.t.c) This fundementalism is what's keeping their respective societies stuck in the dark ages, something that is not rlly the case anywhere else, as far as I'm aware.

Arab culture preceded Islam.

I would argue the opposite, that Arab culture is what stopped Islam from going through a reformation akin to Christianity and Judaism (to a lesser extent). True that Islam compered to other religions is much more a pollical system in nature and therefore easier for rules to exploit in keeping civil progress/rights at bay. It's just easier to control people under the pretext of obeying God then do it by explicit force. It's just a perfect storm.

Again I'm not an advocate of Islam, I agree it's archaic and long, long overdue of modernizing. Maybe the current Shia-Sunny divide will end like the Christian reformation. from then onwards the Christian world became much more tolerant, internally and eventually to other religions.

To my point, force-forming of countries, especially post WW2, regardless of facts on the ground is what leads to this internal conflicts and collapses. The only remedies this countries have is to resort to totalitarian regimes to have any chance of keeping a façade of an independent country.

Look at African countries as evidence, same made up countries, same internal conflicts, same views on gay rights etc. Islam had nothing to do with it.
 
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Nov 25, 2005
34,685
Arab culture preceded Islam.

I would argue the opposite, that Arab culture is what stopped Islam from going through a reformation akin to Christianity and Judaism (to a lesser extent). True that Islam compered to other religions is much more a pollical system in nature and therefore easier for rules to exploit in keeping civil progress/rights at bay. It's just easier to control people under the pretext of obeying God then do it by explicit force. It's just a perfect storm.

Again I'm not an advocate of Islam, I agree it's archaic and long, long overdue of modernizing. Maybe the current Shia-Sunny divide will end like the Christian reformation. from then onwards the Christian world became much more tolerant, internally and eventually to other religions.

To my point, force-forming of countries, especially post WW2, regardless of facts on the ground is what leads to this internal conflicts and collapses. The only remedies this countries have is to resort to totalitarian regimes to have any chance of keeping a façade of an independent country.

Look at African countries as evidence, same made up countries, same internal conflicts, same views on gay rights etc. Islam had nothing to do with it.
Again, Islam is not limited to the Arab world. Other Muslim-majority countries are also fucked up.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,441
Again, Islam is not limited to the Arab world. Other Muslim-majority countries are also fucked up.
Some Christian countries in Africa and south America are also fucked.

Also Iran and Turkey which I assume you are referring to are failing because they have imperialist aspiration and are led by delusional leaders. Religion is a tool for them to manage the population, not the cause for the country failure.
 
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Nov 25, 2005
34,685
Some Christian countries in Africa and south America are also fucked.

Also Iran and Turkey which I assume you are referring to are failing because they have imperialist aspiration and are led by delusional leaders. Religion is a tool for them to manage the population, not the cause for the country failure.
No, I am referring to every single Muslim country.

There are developed Christian countries. There isnt a single developed Muslim one.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,441
No, I am referring to every single Muslim country.

There are developed Christian countries. There isnt a single developed Muslim one.
Malaysia and Kazakhstan, Tunisia are quite developed, Kuwait, Qatar and Oman are also doing OK. Maybe none is "western" kind of progressive but people also have a right to live according to their own values.

Anyway, you are analyzing this thing with just a snapshot of the moment of history you live in. Iran and Turkey for example were (turkey still is) developed countries and always have been Muslim. If you go further back you will find more examples. Little less then millennia ago the Muslim world was far more advance then the western. Did it stagnate? sure, even regressed, but to reduce everything to Islam fault is overly simplistic.
 
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Nov 25, 2005
34,685
Malaysia and Kazakhstan, Tunisia are quite developed, Kuwait, Qatar and Oman are also doing OK. Maybe none is "western" kind of progressive but people also have a right to live according to their own values.

Anyway, you are analyzing this thing with just a snapshot of the moment of history you live in. Iran and Turkey for example were (turkey still is) developed countries and always have been Muslim. If you go further back you will find more examples. Little less then millennia ago the Muslim world was far more advance then the western. Did it stagnate? sure, even regressed, but to reduce everything to Islam fault is overly simplistic.
Kazakhstan? :lol: :lol:

I am not "blaming it all on Islam", but it is definitely one of the main factors why these nations are behind.

Yes, Türkiye was doing fine, right up until the moment one of their politicians decided he wanted to stay in power forever and get crazy rich in the process.
How did he do that? Yep, you guessed it - used Islam to manipulate the masses.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,441
Kazakhstan? :lol: :lol:

I am not "blaming it all on Islam", but it is definitely one of the main factors why these nations are behind.

Yes, Türkiye was doing fine, right up until the moment one of their politicians decided he wanted to stay in power forever and get crazy rich in the process.
How did he do that? Yep, you guessed it - used Islam to manipulate the masses.
Exactly my point, Islam is not the cause it's the tool.

And Kazakhstan is ranked around 50 on HDI, ahead of Russia and most Balkan countries.
 
Nov 25, 2005
34,685
Exactly my point, Islam is not the cause it's the tool.

And Kazakhstan is ranked around 50 on HDI, ahead of Russia and most Balkan countries.
Well what do you call a tool that ONLY does damage? I call it a cause.

Kazakhstan has huge territory with tonnes of resources and little population. But they have crippling corruption, dont have free elections or rule of law - I call that a failing state.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,441
Well what do you call a tool that ONLY does damage? I call it a cause.

Kazakhstan has huge territory with tonnes of resources and little population. But they have crippling corruption, dont have free elections or rule of law - I call that a failing state.
If that's your standard then 60% of the world are failed states. Muslim or not. Not every place that has a flag can be a liberal democracy instantly if at all, some changes takes hundreds of year, most of Europe wasn't democratic less then a century ago.
 
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Nov 25, 2005
34,685
If that's your standard then 60% of the world are failed states. Muslim or not. Not every place that has a flag can be a liberal democracy instantly if at all, some changes takes hundreds of year, most of Europe wasn't democratic less then a century ago.
What do I care what was a century ago? Im talking about now, and now almost all muslim majority countries are under authoritarian rule, including my own. And all the population does is thank Allah for whatever their overlord decides to throw them :D
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
2,441
What do I care what was a century ago? Im talking about now, and now almost all muslim majority countries are under authoritarian rule, including my own. And all the population does is thank Allah for whatever their overlord decides to throw them :D
I get it man, I don't mean to be insensitive. I can imagen it's not easy and you want your country to be better, I understand you are emotionally invested. Where you from btw?

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What in the name of copium is this lo


Cool, didn't see the first one, You should watch the sequel though . Much better production value

 
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