Türkiye (1 Viewer)

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,010
OK. I assume you meant that if he was fired for antisemitism, that's a threat to free speech. If you didn't, then my bad.

Suppose you start your own magazine in France and your editorial policy is to mock all religions, except Islam because you are a Muslim (I don't know if you actually are). Then, one of your employees writes a piece mocking Islam and you fire him. That is perfectly fine and is not a threat to free speech. You are the owner of the magazine and it's entirely up to you to decide the editorial policy. If your employee wanted to mock Islam, he should have founded his own magazine or worked a magazine with a different editorial policy.

Sine wrote a piece criticising Sarkozy's son for planning to convert to Judaism, in order to marry a rich Jewish girl. People started yelling its antisemitism, Charlie Hebdo asked him to apologise, he refused and they fired him.

I don't find that antisemitic. The way I understand it is that Sine was mocking Sarkozy's son for converting to Judaism in order to marry for money. So, if he wasn't fired for antisemitism, but because there was government pressure from Sarkozy, that would be a threat to free speech.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know if this is true, but if it is and it happens Turkey can no longer be seen as a 'Rechtsstaat'.
It's true that Erdogan said it. We don't know if he will do it.
 
Jul 2, 2006
17,015
And in Turkey it's not death. Now, Erdogan wants to introduce death penalty for treason and execute people who have committed treason at a time when it was not punishable by death. Do you understand that?
I do understand but you don't. In situation of war, another law system(military criminal law) is being implemented and there is death penalty in that. they have been taught this in military schools they came from.
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,010
I do understand but you don't. In situation of war, another law system(military criminal law) is being implemented and there is death penalty in that. they have been taught this in military schools they came from.
No, you don't understand. There is no war or military criminal law here. Read the Turkish papers and you'll see.
 

Mohad

The Ocean Star
May 20, 2009
5,712
@Maddy Your point is weak, and it's better to stop assuming about how I deal with cartoons just because I'm a Muslim. What I said is very clear, people who don't know what's going on out there will surely get an idea from such cartoons whether it's positive or negative. Comparing a cartoons of a prime minister with a someone who you take him as a role model is a laughable. You would surely be offended and feel bad if someone talk shit about your role model (let's say your mother), the same thing applies with Muslims when it comes to the Prophet (pbuh). Is that very difficult to understand?

I'm in no way justifying any violent reaction to any form of satire, as cheap as i may find them to be. But like i said i see no corrective purpose in ridiculing religion or nationality, i just don't see it. Insensitivity to the situation, to the timing of our actions, and to the feelings of others is not fearlessness in my book, it's head&heartlessness. Imagine you are against this xyz policy and you want people to understand what's wrong with it, you make jokes about it, chances are people get it more easily, so you can educate them through satire. Now how exactly do you educate an extremist by making fun of what he deems holy? You are not challenging anything. Your audience is first and foremost people who share your opinion, and your purpose is first and foremost to provoke. I honestly see no use/value in that. In the grand scheme of things in fact, i'd say it does more harm than good. I'm not saying this type of satire should be banned (since you referred to freedom of speech), but i believe refraining from resorting to those means is a sign of a responsible artist.

Btw, i think you are also wrongly equating making fun of Islam with making fun of islamists.

EDIT - again, what i said above is just my definition of a good satire. I know that for many people satire can maintain its artistic value without having to have any particular purpose.
:star:
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,531
@Maddy Your point is weak, and it's better to stop assuming about how I deal with cartoons just because I'm a Muslim. What I said is very clear, people who don't know what's going on out there will surely get an idea from such cartoons whether it's positive or negative. Comparing a cartoons of a prime minister with a someone who you take him as a role model is a laughable. You would surely be offended and feel bad if someone talk shit about your role model (let's say your mother), the same thing applies with Muslims when it comes to the Prophet (pbuh). Is that very difficult to understand?
Thank you for your lecture. Sadly, I've got no intellectual respect for you, especially since you compare ideas with personal emotions, and simply do not grasp freedom of speech and it's important role in developing the free liberal democracies of the Western world; albeit all the flaws of these, therefore I will choose to ignore it and you.

Calling my point weak is beyond stupid and shows that you lack democratic bildung. No wonder since you are formed by Saudi Arabia and wahhabism.
@king Ale - haven't got tiem to reply, but I disagree in almost every aspect

This interview with a brilliant freedom of speech-man that isn't motivated by hate liek Gert Wilders, gives a good insight to my view on this matter.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/flemming-rose-danish-cartoons/473670/

and this

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/07/07/europes-freedom-of-speech-fail/
 

DAiDEViL

...still love Max though.
Feb 21, 2015
57,553
I love that Everything that comes out of Erdogan's mouth is true, whilst Western media is one huge liar.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
36,508
@Maddy Your point is weak, and it's better to stop assuming about how I deal with cartoons just because I'm a Muslim. What I said is very clear, people who don't know what's going on out there will surely get an idea from such cartoons whether it's positive or negative. Comparing a cartoons of a prime minister with a someone who you take him as a role model is a laughable. You would surely be offended and feel bad if someone talk shit about your role model (let's say your mother), the same thing applies with Muslims when it comes to the Prophet (pbuh). Is that very difficult to understand?



:star:
So what if you're offended? You can't derive rights from that fact. That you think you can is laughable. Frankly it's the attitude of a toddler. Nothing happens when you're offended. It's not like you're offended and now you've got cancer. You're just offended. So fucking what.
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,010
So what if you're offended? You can't derive rights from that fact. That you think you can is laughable. Frankly it's the attitude of a toddler. Nothing happens when you're offended. It's not like you're offended and now you've got cancer. You're just offended. So fucking what.
"People who claim to be offended can by all means do so, it takes a lot to make me cry." - Christopher Hitchens
 

Mohad

The Ocean Star
May 20, 2009
5,712
So what if you're offended? You can't derive rights from that fact. That you think you can is laughable. Frankly it's the attitude of a toddler. Nothing happens when you're offended. It's not like you're offended and now you've got cancer. You're just offended. So $#@!ing what.
I will simply ignore it, however if someone asks me how do I feel about it I will answer for sure.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,531
So what if you're offended? You can't derive rights from that fact. That you think you can is laughable. Frankly it's the attitude of a toddler. Nothing happens when you're offended. It's not like you're offended and now you've got cancer. You're just offended. So fucking what.
:tup:

Quotes from the interview with Rose, that I linked previously.

He also came to appreciate the true meaning of dissent. “The dissidents in the Soviet Union made a strong impression on me,” he said, because they showed him just “how important it is to fight self-censorship, how important it is to have the right to attack ideas, no matter what,” and because “they took some very tough choices that really ruined their lives.
The context, at least as Rose explained it in a Washington Post article published at the height of the controversy, was a climate of “self-censorship in Europe caused by widening fears and feelings of intimidation in dealing with issues related to Islam.” “The idea wasn’t to provoke gratuitously,” he wrote, but rather “to push back self-imposed limits on expression that seemed to be closing in tighter.” Rose cited the case of a children’s-book author who had trouble finding an illustrator for a book on the Koran and the life of the prophet, such was the level of fear surrounding depictions of Muhammad.
“One of the things that I’m worried about is the erosion of the distinction between words and deeds and how this opens the way to criminalize words,”
If one do not understand the importance of this and exactly why freedom of speech > 'right to be offended', then I feel sorry for that human being and the society in which it lives.
 

Hængebøffer

Senior Member
Jun 4, 2009
25,173
Mohad can laugh all he wants. Let's look at this in a pragmatic and also factual way:
Variety is much much better in almost every western country, than anywhere else in the world. I'm done arguing with fascist like you. My country is even allowing anti democratic and anti freedom islamist groups to form societies here, where they spew misogynist and fascist shit to the general muslim society. I laugh even thinking a scenario, where we turn the table. Not even some of these Islamist groups would be allowed to speak back in the middle east.
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
66,566
I love that Everything that comes out of Erdogan's mouth is true, whilst Western media is one huge liar.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
Herr Dogan! Sowwy :p

Mohad can laugh all he wants. Let's look at this in a pragmatic and also factual way:
Variety is much much better in almost every western country, than anywhere else in the world. I'm done arguing with fascist like you. My country is even allowing anti democratic and anti freedom islamist groups to form societies here, where they spew misogynist and fascist shit to the general muslim society. I laugh even thinking a scenario, where we turn the table. Not even some of these Islamist groups would be allowed to speak back in the middle east.
Civically aware population, that's it, thats the difference
 

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